beantwoord

Clarifiations about the groupsretour ticket


Hi, I have some questions regarding the validity of the groupsretour ticket. If I have a groupsretour ticket that says Amsterdam - Groningen on its front, the ticket is valid both ways right? Either if I travel towards Amsterdam or towards Groningen, it is still valid, isn't it? Or is there a starting time at which I'm allowed to travel in the opposite direction? (I already know that I cannot travel before 9 from Monday to Friday, so I'm not refering to that time constraint) Could you show me an official paper or document (also in Dutch is ok) which says all the rules, terms and conditions about the groupsretour ticket? Thanks in advance!
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Beste antwoord door Thom 23 oktober 2014, 13:48

Unfortunately the train conductor is right. You need to travel to Groningen first. I considered this as logical but more explicit: It is in this case not allowed to take the opposite direction and to leave from Groningen. Your groupticket was not valid and there is no official right for a reimbursement. The conductor could have given a fine of 35 euros, so he was nice actually. Maybe some refund is possible but that is not up to me but to a NS-moderator. They are here every day and mostly within hours.

Bekijk origineel

30 reacties

Reputatie 7
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@AVreferee: It is valid from Amsterdam to Groningen and from Groningen to Amsterdam as well.

Information in Dutch

General information in English.
@Thom: I was asking this because last sunday I was travelling at 9 AM towards Amsterdam, with a ticket that said "Amsterdam - Groningen" and the ticket inspector forced me to get out of the train and buy a regular ticket, insisting that it was impossible that I was coming back from Groningen as it was too early in the morning. So in theory I have the right to ask for a reimbursement because my groupticket was valid right?
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Unfortunately the train conductor is right. You need to travel to Groningen first. I considered this as logical but more explicit: It is in this case not allowed to take the opposite direction and to leave from Groningen. Your groupticket was not valid and there is no official right for a reimbursement. The conductor could have given a fine of 35 euros, so he was nice actually. Maybe some refund is possible but that is not up to me but to a NS-moderator. They are here every day and mostly within hours.
Ok but is there a document which officially says that I cannot go to the opposite way before a certain time? How can the inspector prove that I went first to Groningen and then to Amsterdam? Are you saying this based on your personal thoughts or are you saying it based on official rules which are written somewhere?
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It is very easy: You travelled from Groningen to Amsterdam and at the time he noticed you it was impossible that you had travelled from Amsterdam to Groningen and had taken a train back. It is easy to see on the timetable, not a personal thought. It is a matter of calculation. I am not sure that you can find these conditions in English, they will be in Dutch but I am not willing to read all that small print and actually I do not think there is any need to do so. You could either look it up or ask a moderator to look at your case. The last possibility is more interesting, I guess.
How do I ask a moderator? (Thanks anyway for trying to help, I know I'm being a little bit annoying)
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You have to wait until they ask you to.
Ok thanks!
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What the ....?

As far as I know throwaway ticketing is not forbidden at NS, so you should be able to use a return ticket for a single trip if you want.
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Het is wel een groepsticket, geen heen- of retourticket en dan zijn er aanvullende voorwaarden. De vraag is wel als je 'terug' reist voordat je heen gegaan bent of het groepsretour dan geldig is. Met twee losse e-tickets is het geen enkel probleem. Maar het groepsretour is niet met twee losse e-tickets. Ik heb het bij de voorwaarden niet expliciet kunnen lezen maar alleen terugreizen vanuit de groepsbestemming mag wel, zoals ook uit eerdere beantwoording bleek. De vraag is dan of je geen oneigenlijk gebruik maakt omdat je niet eerst bent heengereisd of niet had kunnen heenreizen, wat de conducteur aangaf. Je moet ook enige redelijkheid betrachten over wat de conducteur menselijk gezien kan weten. Aan de andere kant is ons rechtsstelsel wel zo dat het is toegestaan als het niet is verboden of wanneer redelijkerwijs is af te leiden dat het verboden zou moeten zijn. Ik heb alle begrip voor de conducteur en het lijkt me juist wat hij stelde maar vraag me af hoe het precies zit en op grond waarvan het is af te leiden.

Mooi klusje voor Dennis ;-)

Kan iemand van NS hierin uitsluitsel geven?
Reputatie 7
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AvReferee schreef:

Ok but is there a document which officially says that I cannot go to the opposite way before a certain time?

-As I told in reaction nr.9 I asked NS for it

How can the inspector prove that I went first to Groningen and then to Amsterdam?

-He does not need to prove that. When you had been able to do that, there was no problem. But of course you could not prove anything like that. You started in Groningen because u used a ticket from Groningen. But it is useless to ask to prove that. There is no need to.


Are you saying this based on your personal thoughts or are you saying it based on official rules which are written somewhere?

- I have given some arguments. You dit not travel with two separate e-tickets. In that case there is no problem. The question is whether or not you violated the rules for the groupticket and it is the most reasonable way to ask NS to give exclusion in this matter. I could not find it in explicit terms but there may be. The groupticket is definitely not meant for this and the exclusion is probably in the small print.

Thom is correct. It's not valid to use this ticket when it's the first traveloption. You need to travel in the direction of your ticket, so you needed to travel to Groningen first.

I replaced this topic to 'Acties en Uitjes' to increase the findabillity of this topic.
This is "steenkolen" English, are you Louis Van Gaal ?

The second and third sentence are not that good (direction of your destination for instance), but in the last sentence you probably meant that you have moved this topic.
even veranderen in jullie standaardantwoorden, want deze fout is al meer gemaakt.
Ik neem toch niet aan dat 3 NS medewerkers niet weten wat replace betekent ?



19 september 2014, 17:17


Welcome Petit Uin! I replaced your topic to acties en uitjes.

Thanks for providing Chrysalis some background information, Edwin!

P.s. I've replaced this topic to our Op het station subforum.
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Susan NS schreef:

Thom is correct. It's not valid to use this ticket when it's the first traveloption. You need to travel in the direction of your ticket, so you needed to travel to Groningen first.

I replaced this topic to 'Acties en Uitjes' to increase the findabillity of this topic.



Where can a customer find that it is forbidden to travel to the destination on your ticket using another ticket (for instance a regular ticket to travel to Groningen prior to 9 o'clock) or way of transport and only use the return portion of the ticket? It cannot be found in the 'conditions groepsretour'. http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/assets/NS/reizigers/voorwaarden/actievoorwaarden-ns-groepsretour---per-01-09.pdf

And what about starting your journey in Groningen-Europapark, travel to Groningen and immediately back to Amsterdam. Is that considered using both portions of the ticket since it is allowed to exit or board the train at all stations on the route of an e-ticket.
It is very strange because during the rest of the day IT IS ALLOWED.

It is appaerently only NOT ALLOWED when it is the first traveloption.

And it is a retour ticket so you should be able to use it for either direction.

But we will hear tomorrow where we can find this condition because that should be on the conditions list.

Actievoorwaarden NS Groepsretour
* Het NS Groepsretour is op doordeweekse dagen geldig na 9.00 uur. In het weekend en op feestdagen is dit kaartje de hele dag geldig. Op Koningsdag (maandag 27 april 2015) is het NS Groepsretour niet geldig.
* Het NS Groepsretour is zowel bij NS als bij andere treinvervoerders geldig.
* Elke persoon in de groep heeft een eigen persoonlijk e-ticket nodig om te kunnen
reizen.
* Het aanbod is niet geldig in combinatie met andere aanbiedingen.
* Het NS Groepsretour kan gekocht worden t/m 31 december 2015 in de e- ticketshop.
* Gekochte NS Groepsretouren kunnen t/m 29 februari 2016 verzilverd worden in de e-ticketshop.
* NS behoudt zich het recht voor om tussentijds de prijs te verhogen.
* Er wordt geen restitutie verleend op dit product.
* Er wordt geld terug bij vertraging verleend op dit product.
1 september 2014



It is after bullet 7: NS is allowed to increase the price of your journey whenever they want, for example by kicking you out of the train to buy a new ticket. :8
This rules were written with a lot left to interpretation... Susan, how can an inspector know that you already have travelled to Groningen or not? It is left to every single inspector common sense? It is really unclear how we should behave...
P.S.: some friends told me that this happened before and after calling the ns customer service they were told that travelling in the opposite direction is always allowed! Who should we listen to?
https://forum.ns.nl/overige-producten-6/groepsretour-alleen-voor-de-terugreis-gebruiken-vanaf-hetzelfde-vertrekpunt-6293

in this topic it says that there should not be a problem.
Maar hier zegt Susan NS dat het weer niet mag.
Groepsretour is valid for a single journey only: https://forum.ns.nl/overige-producten-6/zijn-groepstickets-voor-enkele-reizen-3572
Also, travelling in opposite direction is allowed:
https://forum.ns.nl/overige-producten-6/kun-je-bestemming-vertreklocatie-omdraaien-5811
Looks like there should not be any problem.
Let's hear what NS says about it.
Apparently NS doesn't have to say anything anymore, given their lack of response.
So let me give my two cents on this one.
The conductor was wrong. There is no way the conductor could have known for certain that AvReferee did not first travel to Groningen. AvReferee told it happened on a Sunday. On Sundays, the group return tickets are valid throughout the day, even before 9:00. But even if AvReferee took the very first train on the Sunday schedule, it still doesn't mean he did not travel to Groningen using the last train scheduled for Saturday, arriving in Groningen at 1:23, which is well into the new day and hence a ticket for Sunday would be valid as of Zwolle. AvReferee could have used this option, with an additional ticket valid for Saturday from Amsterdam to Zwolle. I am not aware of any rule stating that one really has to travel all the way from Amsterdam to Groningen, rather than having a starting point somewhere on the way. The conductor could in no way know if any person taking the first train out of Groningen wasn't in the last train towards Groningen. Hence the conductor was simply wrong and a reimbursement is in place.
Dear AvReferee, PPP,

With a so called "Groepsretour", it is not allowed to start your journey from the final destination announced on your ticket, unless you only make a single journey. If you start at the final destination on your ticket (e.g. Groningen), then travel to Amsterdam and in the end of the day travelling back to Groningen, you might have problems on this way back. The point is that if the conductor stamps your ticket on the way from Groningen to Amsterdam, it means that it is used for the (initial) returning journey already. If you go back from Amsterdam to Groningen again, the conductor can interpret this as a third journey (the original journeys are A'dam-Gr, Gr-A'dam, and now you would travel on this track for a third time). And this is simply not allowed, these are the rules for the "Groepsretour".
Hopefully I have answered your question; do not hesitate to reply if we can help you further.

Regards,
Stephan

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