Unacceptable treatment

  • 3 augustus 2016
  • 45 reacties
  • 6094 Bekeken


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45 reacties

Reputatie 4
Clearly the NS employees gave wrong information, I was also told many times it is OK to sit in 1st class if trains are overcrowded, nobody told me that I need to listen for the conductor to allow to do so 1st.

Who told you this? I've been travelling by train for many years and I have never heard any NS employee tell me that as a general rule one can sit in first class if the second class is overcrowded. That would also be highly illogical, as one of the reasons for people to pay the extra fare price for the first class is to have a higher chance of a seat.

In extraordinary circumstances a train conductor can allow passengers to sit in first class. Perhaps you mistook an announcement of this kind as a general rule. Or a fellow passenger told you such a general rule exists. Passengers can give wrong information.

Reading this post is seems that RUKiddingME is being the pray again, attacked by a wolfpack of NS lovers... In any case, things are not good, take it on board please NS, we have no other option, you cannot handle a simple customer inquiry well, no wonder you get fines and warning from the government: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/04/dutch-railway-operators-fined-and-warned-by-minister/

This fine concerns the operation of the high-speed line, not the regular railway service.
Maarten, Both me and RUkiddnME were told that by NS employees, me by staff in the trains, RUkiddnME by staff of NS operating the phones. I'm quite a logical & pragmatic guy, but if you give me garbage a one big mess will happen, it's quite logical i think. In any case RUkiddnME is not holding a grudge (I guess he has no other option anyway) so let's stop trolling. I wonder how long till "moderators" will remove this post from search though..

Sorry, you are right, I give you the correct link below:
http://nltimes.nl/2017/01/26/overcrowded-trains-dutch-railway-ns-headed-court
Reputatie 4
Why would moderators want to remove your post from search?

I don't see what that court case has to do with the fines and warnings from the government you mentioned.
Maarten, is NS's Social Media Manager paying you to have last word?
Maarten, I was told on several occasions that it was okay to sit in first class when the train is full. I learned the hard way that it not true and now avoid first class. Do you think that it NOT a problem?
Reputatie 7
I never heard anyone say it's okay to go first class. That's a big misunderstanding. I'm not saying you were not told that by a staff member, but to clearify on the forum.

It's never allowed to sit first class with a second class ticket, unless you have permission from staff or company.
I never heard anyone say it's okay to go first class. That's a big misunderstanding. I'm not saying you were not told that by a staff member, but to clearify on the forum.

It's never allowed to sit first class with a second class ticket, unless you have permission from staff or company.


Call me a fool but that seems problematic: unless you have permission from staff or company. Who's to say that you do get permission and still get a ticket. How could you ever prove it. Like me I thought I had permission even though it might have occurred several years ago. Would it not be wise to post the rules on the door or somewhere in first class which C L E A R L Y says what is allowed?
Reputatie 7
If a conductor gives you permission the same person is not gonna fine you. If the company gives you permission you have to have written proof or some other method to show it.

It doenst have to be any clearer, it's not allowed unless one of the above happens.
First, I would never, ever again sit in first class even if I got permission from a conductor. I'll just be happy the rest of my life with my second class ticket and seat if there is one available. That is a clear path that a wise man would happily take instead of venturing into muddy waters.

It does seem confusing that you can sometime and cannot sometimes sit in first class depending on the wave of the magic wand by the omnipotent conductor. It seems risky and potentially dangerous. Who knows what rules apply on which day according to which conductor you may parlay.
Reputatie 4
It seems pretty straight-forward to me that you can't travel first class if you have a second class ticket. I therefore don't see a reason to put up a sign in first class saying that it is not allowed to take seat there if you have a second class ticket.

It's a fairly standard policy all across Europe that in exceptional circumstances passengers with a second class ticket can sit in first class after permission from the board staff.

Can I sit in first class if there are no seats in standard?

No, you can only travel in first class with a valid first class ticket. We regularly check tickets on board our trains and you may have to pay the difference if you do not hold a first class ticket. You might also be charged a penalty fare.

If a train is exceptionally busy the conductor may ‘declassify’ first class, making those seats available for standard ticket holders. This is unusual because we respect that passengers have paid a premium for first class.

In exceptional circumstances you may be able to sit in first class with a standard ticket if you have permission from one of our on board staff.


https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us/faqs/trains-and-train-service

Regionalbahn von Aachen nach Hamm. Die Reisenden stehen dicht an dicht gedrängt, es gibt kein Durchkommen mehr. Sogar die Gänge im Zug sind komplett verstopft, mit schwitzenden Menschen und dicken Gepäckstücken. Nur im Abteil der 1. Klasse winken noch ein paar freie Plätze. Aber darf ich mich mit meinem zweite-Klasse-Ticket einfach dorthin setzen?

Ganz klar: „Nein“, sagt Birgit Pörner, stellvertretende Pressesprecherin für den Personenverkehr der Deutschen Bahn. In der Eisenbahn-Verkehrsordnung (EVO) steht in § 13 Abs. 1 unmissverständlich: „Ein Anspruch auf einen Sitzplatz oder auf Unterbringung in der 1. Klasse bei Platzmangel in der 2. Klasse besteht nicht.“ Ausnahmen gibt es nur, wenn die Bahn bzw. das Zugpersonal solche macht und ankündigt: „Ein Umsetzen in die 1. Klasse ist nur nach einer Durchsage bzw. Freigabe möglich“, erklärt Pörner.


http://www.fr.de/leben/recht/zug-ueberfuellt-duerfen-bahnreisende-in-die-1-klasse-wechseln-a-366893

These are the first hits on Google when you search in English or German. I'm pretty sure you can find similar statements in French, Italian, Swedish or any other language.
Maarten, my only goal was to arrive to work on time. It was not to decipher the problems or policies of why a seat was not available nor to figure of when, where, and why I might also by chance be allowed or forbidden to sit in first class. The simple rule you should say it NEVER sit in first class under any circumstance. That is what I follow: it clear, needs not to be discussed, and will never land me into problems with the NS.
Reputatie 4
Perhaps that's indeed the best option for you. You seem traumatized by the experience. For most other people, the "no, unless" policy that is in force across virtually all train operators in Europe is pretty straight-forward. I'll gladly take up my seat in first class if the conductor allows me.
Dear NS Social Media Warriors.

Both me and RUKiddnME have been told by NS staff that "It is OK to sit in 1st class in case the train is overcrowded". it is a FACT, we are not ... kidding you.

We as the customers of NS are happy to stand corrected by your input here on this forum, we take on board that on a NS trtain it is not allowed to go into 1st class unless the conductor announces so. Thank you for clarification and correction.

Could you please do something constructive though, and recognize that you do have a problem: NS staff is communicating the wrong information to the customers, as a result of which people are pretty much assaulted and fined. The fine is a direct result of an incomplete instruction given by NS staff.

Do you recognize your problem, or do you prefer to continuously insinuate here that we both are liars and opportunists?

In any case, I still have not heard anybody from NS apologize for any inconvenience, its just a manner of good behavior and minimum respect to your customer. all in all, the issue here is that NS is mismanaging lately the capacity of trains, which is now under inquiry from your Ministry of Infrastructure and other industry watchdogs/whistle blowers. With this in context, I would think your rhetoric should be a bit more considerate to the commuter, your social responsibility should be part of your corporate targets.
Good morning everyone, and in particular RUKuddinME and TheAlien.

I have read all the posts by RUKiddinME. Thank you for sharing them.

On August 2 you explain that you were mistreated that day by one of my colleagues. First of all, I am ofcourse very sorry to hear this and I apologise on behalf of my colleague. According to your story, you were once told by NS employees that you can enter the first class with a second class ticket, when there are no seats available in second class. Because of that, you did so that day. One of my colleagues then entered. Several people tried to get out, after which the conductor tried to block them in a very agressive way.

I can imagine you feel upset by the way he has treated you. If you were given the advice to sit first class when second class is full, I can understand your decision. I do hope however, that you realise that when people try to leave the first class as soon as an NS employee enters, this raises suspicion. I can assume this is why my colleague followed you and the others, to make sure you were the holders of a first class ticket. Apparantly, his assumption you were not, was correct. This is however not an excuse to treat you badly.

My colleague Laura asked you for more details, so she could file a complaint towards the conductor. Since your complaint was made the same day of the incident, she would have been able to contact the person you were describing. However, you decided not to give any further information.

TheAlien states that we as a company have a problem. If a fine has been given as a result of false information given by us, you can always contact us and explain the situation. Because of his explanation, RUKiddinME was given a refund.

There are situations where an NS employee can decide the first class is accessible for travels with a second class ticket. This does not occur often and has to be decided during the moment itself. This means that only when the employee that is working on the train you are currently in decides to give permission, you are allowed to enter first class. As said before, I am sorry if you were given other information.
Perhaps that's indeed the best option for you. You seem traumatized by the experience. For most other people, the "no, unless" policy that is in force across virtually all train operators in Europe is pretty straight-forward. I'll gladly take up my seat in first class if the conductor allows me.

@Maarten86, you pointed out the policies for train operators in Europe, i.e. the policies are the same. However, I bet the implementation varies between countries varies. If you checked it is probably implemented quite differently between Germany, Switzerland, France, Italy, and the Netherlands. So, from my perspective the problem is the "implementation" of the policy. A case in point is United Airlines: their policy was to allow passengers to be bumped if crew members needed to fly. If you have seen the video you might say the officers were just following the policy. They implemented it by dragging a passenger off the plane like a sack of potatoes. It was clearly following company though...

If you are not aware about 95% of the time I have a seat in 2nd class for my short 20 minute journey. About 4.999% of the time it is too crowded and I have to stand in 2nd class. Less than 0.001% there is no room in the 2nd class to sit or stand. In this rare case, a 2nd class passenger on my train (not me) may decide to then break train policy. If that passenger is lucky a train operator may walk past and say 1st class is open to everyone. If not they may end up with a fine or worse. FWIW, if someone was actually offered a seat in first class by the conductor, I hope they would first give it to an elderly person or lady before just grabbing it for their own use. BTW, how often has this actually occurred for you Maarten? Do you sit in 1st class often?

@Sivan, thanks for your lengthy explanation. Do you realize how this sounds? Is is perfectly logical but something is amiss. Is this the fantasy train? How does anyone actually process such mumbo jumbo? Does this actually mean you are not allowed to enter first class unless you have permission? Do you have to walk around the 1st class car if you have a 2nd class ticket? Maybe jump on the roof?

Post this in first class and see the reactions:

"There are situations where an NS employee can decide the first class is accessible for travels with a second class ticket. This does not occur often and has to be decided during the moment itself. This means that only when the employee that is working on the train you are currently in decides to give permission, you are allowed to enter first class."
Badge +3
The rules are very simple. You can travel in first class if you hold a first class ticket. (Under very exceptional circumstances first class may be downclassed by the the operator.)
RUKiddinME, the information given by iMark is correct: you are allowed in first class if you have a first class ticket. I think that is a fair and simple rule.
Badge +3
Indeed. It's a very simple rule and valid in all countries where there are trains with different classes of travel. It's not a specific Dutch or NS rule. It's the same all over the world. Obviously it's up to an operator's discretion to downclass accommodation on the train. But passengers should never presume that they can travel in first class without holding a first class ticket.

However, what happens if a ticket inspector finds you in first class for which you don't hold a valid ticket varies from country to country and from operator to operator. In some cases you will be demanded to pay the difference between a first and second class ticket (most likely with an administration fee). In other cases you will be fined and requested to leave first class. That last situation occurs on NS trains because their ticket inspectors are not equipped to sell tickets. That was a very conscious decision because carrying money and tickets posed a threat to ticket inspectors.
The rules are very simple. You can travel in first class if you hold a first class ticket. (Under very exceptional circumstances first class may be downclassed by the the operator.)
(1) I agree: you can only travel in first class if you hold a first class ticket. You will never run into problems following this rule.
(2) I do not agree: Under very exceptional circumstances first class may be down-classed by the the operator. This is full of potential problems and should be avoided.

I said following (1) was the best long-term strategy about 20 posts ago. Have we beaten this subject to death enough?
Badge +3
(2) I do not agree: Under very exceptional circumstances first class may be down-classed by the the operator. This is full of potential problems and should be avoided.
By 'operator' I do not mean the the guard/ticket inspector but the train operating company. There have instances that there was too much first class accommodation in a train set. As a temporary measure before refitting the superfluous 1st class seating by standard class seating, that part of the train can be down classed, indicated by posters on windows etc. That would be one of those very exceptional circumstances.
A seat in first class may be offered in individual extraordinary circumstances by the guard/ticket inspector. But that hardly ever happens.

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